Dr. Alex Lockwood is the project scientist on the science communication team for the James Webb Space Telescope at the Space Telescope Science Institute. While earning her Ph.D. in Planetary Astronomy and Science, Alex had the unique opportunity to star in a movie about the challenges faced by grad students. She discovered a passion for communication through her stint on the silver screen, and now she uses her doctorate to share astronomy with the world as a science communicator. She talks with us about her lifelong love of “looking up,” the obstacles of being a woman in science, and sharing the iconic James Webb Telescope images with the world.
Shane Hanlon: 00:00 Hi, Vicky.
Vicky Thompson: 00:01 Hi, Shane.
Shane Hanlon: 00:03 What’s your favorite movie?
Vicky Thompson: 00:06 Empire Records.
Shane Hanlon: 00:08 Really?
Vicky Thompson: 00:09 Yeah. Do you know that movie?
Shane Hanlon: 00:11 I do know that movie. Yeah. The surprise of my voice is not specifically for… It’s a good movie.
Vicky Thompson: 00:17 Yeah.
Shane Hanlon: 00:17 My surprise is that it came to you that quickly.
Vicky Thompson: 00:22 Oh, yeah. I find I like it so much that I will make weird references to it that nobody gets all the time.
Shane Hanlon: 00:30 Yeah. I couldn’t tell you specifics of it, or lines, or something like that.
Vicky Thompson: 00:35 Yeah.
Shane Hanlon: 00:36 But I am familiar with… Wow, that’s impressive.
Vicky Thompson: 00:39 Yeah. Yeah.
Shane Hanlon: 00:41 Shoot. Was-
Vicky Thompson: 00:42 I guess my second one would be Flash Gordon, but the one from the ’80s, which we don’t have to talk about, but I just feel the need to say that out loud.
Shane Hanlon: 00:49 No, I love that so much.
Vicky Thompson: 00:51 Yeah.
Shane Hanlon: 00:52 Man, you’re decisive.
Vicky Thompson: 00:55 Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Shane Hanlon: 00:56 I’m not. This was tough for me. I find it hard to have favorites in most media, if I’m being honest, just because I love media. I love movies, and TV shows, and podcasts, and books, and I love it all. I’m such a generalist, so I can’t answer this question. I created this prompt. I cannot answer it. I thought about it for a long time, and it just hurt my brain.
Vicky Thompson: 01:22 Yeah, okay.
Shane Hanlon: 01:22 I think something like The Empire Strikes Back comes to mind because I’m a big Star Wars fan, and I think that’s-
Vicky Thompson: 01:22 Sure.
Shane Hanlon: 01:27 … the best Star Wars movie ever made. I don’t know if that’s the best movie or my favorite movie. I will say, though, because I see a lot of movies, one of my favorite movies in the past year was Top Gun: Maverick.
Vicky Thompson: 01:41 Oh. I-
Shane Hanlon: 01:44 Look at the judgment on your face.
Vicky Thompson: 01:48 I just feel like I didn’t see it. I didn’t see it, but it’s all good.
Shane Hanlon: 01:50 Oh, I-
Vicky Thompson: 01:51 Top Gun’s my husband’s favorite movie.
Shane Hanlon: 01:53 Oh, that tracks with a lot of people, especially, I will say, guys of our age, of a certain time.
Vicky Thompson: 02:02 Sure.
Shane Hanlon: 02:03 The second one was fun.
Vicky Thompson: 02:05 Yeah. Well, my immediate reaction, without having seen it and without having watched anything more than the trailer, is over-hyped.
Shane Hanlon: 02:18 Oh.
Vicky Thompson: 02:18 Or too-
Shane Hanlon: 02:18 Nope. It wasn’t.
Vicky Thompson: 02:20 I don’t know, just riding on the coattails of-
Shane Hanlon: 02:23 Oh.
Vicky Thompson: 02:23 .. nostalgia.
Shane Hanlon: 02:25 100%. I have to be clear to everyone. This is not a movie criticism podcast. We are expressing opinions. I had a great-
Vicky Thompson: 02:25 Oh, sure.
Shane Hanlon: 02:33 … freaking time with this movie, and I will say seeing it in the theater was probably a different experience. I haven’t watched it at home, and so I bet it’s a little bit of a different thing there. But holy cow, at least for me personally, it lived up to the hype, and I had a great time.
Vicky Thompson: 02:51 I feel like maybe this is why you won’t commit to having a favorite kind of media, because as soon as you say something out loud, it just gets ripped apart. Whereas I said Empire Records, and you were like, “Oh, that’s cool. All right. Blah, blah, blah.” And you said Top Gun: Maverick, and I was like, “No, thank you.”
Shane Hanlon: 02:51 You’re the reason, Vicky.
Vicky Thompson: 02:51 Immediately.
Shane Hanlon: 03:12 You’re the reason why I can’t pick a favorite.
Vicky Thompson: 03:14 Yeah, exactly, me and people like me.
Shane Hanlon: 03:22 Science is fascinating, but don’t just take my word for it. Join us as we hear stories from scientists for everyone. I’m Shane Hanlon.
Vicky Thompson: 03:32 I’m Vicky Thompson.
Shane Hanlon: 03:33 This is Third Pod from the Sun. We’re talking movies today because, well… so there is a movie connection to this week’s guest.
Vicky Thompson: 03:48 That’s really cool, actually, so like Steven Spielberg?
Shane Hanlon: 03:51 Yeah. Yeah, actually, so this week on the pod, we are talking with Spielberg. He’s going to tell us about Jurassic Park and the science behind… No, that would be fantastic, but that’s not what’s happening.
Vicky Thompson: 04:03 I was going to say we really buried the lede-
Shane Hanlon: 04:05 I know.
Vicky Thompson: 04:05 … if that’s-
Shane Hanlon: 04:05 Yeah. No, there would be no cold open for that episode, absolutely not. No, but-
Vicky Thompson: 04:10 Just be like, “Hi, Steven.”
Shane Hanlon: 04:11 Yeah, exactly.
Vicky Thompson: 04:12 “Hi, Shane.”
Shane Hanlon: 04:12 Yeah, “Hi, Steven.”
Vicky Thompson: 04:12 Yeah.
Shane Hanlon: 04:15 No, but I will say the person we’re talking with today, she’s a fellow science communicator who’s really focused on the public side of things. We’re going to hear about what it’s like to communicate for NASA, an unexpected career opportunity, might be movie related-
Vicky Thompson: 04:31 Ooh.
Shane Hanlon: 04:32 … some obstacles she had to overcome throughout her career, and some of the challenges she sees ahead in the future of space exploration, so we’ll get into it. Our interviewer was Jason Rodriguez.
Alex Lockwood: 04:47 My name is Alex Lockwood. My employer is the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, Maryland. My title, role there is project scientist for web science communications. However, I am on an IPA detail to NASA headquarters working for the Science Engagement and Partnerships Division in the Science Mission Directorate, so it’s a little confusing.
Jason Rodriguez: 05:18 Cool. What is IPA?
Alex Lockwood: 05:22 IPA is an interagency personnel agreement, so it’s an opportunity for nonprofits, mostly taken advantage of by universities, to share personnel with the government, and so it’s kind of an easy way to get some experience in other things, and it’s an opportunity between nonprofits and the government.
Jason Rodriguez: 05:43 Wonderful. Within that role and all those roles, what exactly do you do?
Alex Lockwood: 05:51 What I do now is I help facilitate the communications and engagement efforts for the Science Mission Directorate. Anything that is a priority for NASA science for the month, or for the year, or the decade is something that I am focused on trying to help convey to the public and engage the public in.
Jason Rodriguez: 06:16 Nice. I guess when you think back on it, what drew you first into science? What gave you that pull or push into it?
Alex Lockwood: 06:26 I think it was a combination of my parents encouraged me in science and mathematics. They always believed in the rigor of science, even though neither of them are scientists themselves, but astronomy particular, I would always look up, and it’s not a natural habit, actually, of people to look up because, evolutionarily, we look around us, or we look down because that’s where the prey and the predators are, and so looking up, I just always found myself looking up, and wondering at the sky, and just loving the possibility of what’s out there, and us being a part of it, and learning about it. It developed into a career, but it definitely wasn’t a straight line or super intentional.
Jason Rodriguez: 07:20 Sure. What do you think drove you to look up in the first place, do you think?
Alex Lockwood: 07:26 I just wondered. I wondered what was out there. I wondered our place in it. It’s inspiring and also really humbling to know that we’re part of something bigger but such a small part. I don’t know, I could just stand outside, look up, and get lost for hours. It just inspires my head to think and dream. I don’t know.
Jason Rodriguez: 07:54 You talk about looking at the sky as inspiration. I’m wondering if there’s any other sort of inspiration that guided you in your process.
Alex Lockwood: 08:03 I’ve always been really geared towards helping people, and I have an atypical career path. A lot of that was a transition more into working with people, and helping people, and inspiring people. My mom was a really generous, magnanimous person, and when I was growing up, I just saw her reach out to help a stranger on the street. She’s very affectionate. It was just instilled for me from a young age that community is really important, and it’s everyone’s responsibility to contribute to that community. I don’t know. I mean, helping others feels good, and that may sound really trite, but it’s really true.
08:58 My interests have always been split, and fortunately, very, very, very incredibly fortunately, they ended up coming together. I ended up going to University of Maryland, which had a very strong astronomy program, and so I did astronomy, but I have always been passionate about Spanish and Spanish language, so I minored in Spanish. In astronomy, the sort of next natural step is to go to grad school, and I liked science, and I wanted to continue in that, but I also wanted to become fluent in Spanish. I figured that my best opportunity to do that would be to take a year between college and grad school. So, I deferred grad school admission for a year to go to Costa Rica and learn Spanish fluently. Then, I went to grad school, and I studied planetary science. I studied sort of the intersection between planetary science and astronomy, exoplanets and the formation of planets.
10:03 Because I have this sort of inherent desire to be with people and help people, I got involved in a lot of outreach activities when I was in grad school, both teaching astronomy and also doing other things. I was kind of a house mom for some undergraduates for several years, which included a lot of mental health training for myself and then helping the students deal with crises. Then, through that, I ended up getting cast in a movie, yeah, about graduate school. There is a web comic called PhD Comics that I loved when I was in grad school. I would follow religiously, and print out the comics, and put them on the door of my grad school office, and absolutely loved it. Then, they ended up making a movie based on the comics, and I ended up getting cast as the lead. This was all through connections I had made doing things outside of grad school.
11:12 That was really unique and interesting, and between my own introspection in grad school and exposure and opportunities I had when the movie came out, and going on tour with it, and getting a lot of fan mail, people saying, “I’m in grad school, and your movie inspired me. It kept me going. Thank you so much for giving a voice to our struggles and all of this stuff.” In all of that, I realized that I needed to get back to how I was helping people and society. I came to the conclusion that the best thing I could do with my astronomy degree was to share astronomy with other people.
12:01 So, after grad school, I pivoted out of strictly science into science communications. That led me to take a job opportunity in Saudi Arabia for two and a half years, again, because I didn’t have any role models, so I didn’t know that there was a job in science communication that I could have as a scientist. I saw some science communications jobs, but they were all open to people with communications backgrounds. I didn’t think that there was a spot for me. I didn’t know what my career would look like until somebody gave me an opportunity. But it was in another country that I never planned on going to. When I was back in the US, some people I’d worked with previously sort of heard about me and told me about this job opportunity at the Space Telescope Science Institute, which works on astronomy, specifically working for the James Webb Space Telescope.
13:00 The James Webspace telescope just launched. It’s been a really cool thing. It is an infrared telescope, and I did all my undergrad studies in infrared science, so it was kind of a perfect fit because they were looking for a scientist to do communications, and it was right in my area of expertise. I’ve been doing that for several years. I did it all the way up to the first images that were released from the telescope in July, at which point I was offered a position to come over to NASA.
Jason Rodriguez: 13:31 You talk about being in that movie and being the main character, and you also had opportunities doing TED Talks and things like that. How did all that fit into preparing you for where you are right now?
Alex Lockwood: 13:47 Yeah. Where I am now is I’m at the point where I’m able to help fit pieces together a lot both because I have learned how to work in the business and communications sphere. I’ve learned the principles of communication and engagement. But I am able to use my deeper science background to put together a lot of puzzle pieces, which is important when you’re talking about creating narratives for all of NASA science because NASA science spans the sun, and the solar system, and the Earth, and experiments that we do out in outer space, and the entire universe. I just feel like I’ve found a way to tie together my love of science and my love of people to ultimately share science with people and work with people to do that. Yeah, I mean, so many of my opportunities… I feel like I just kind of stumbled through life, not that I didn’t work really hard, because every time I was on a path, I worked really hard, but I didn’t know what the next step would look like at all.
Vicky Thompson: 15:13 It sounds like things went really well for her.
Shane Hanlon: 15:15 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she had a ton of success, but kind of like a movie, there’s always a low somewhere in all those highs.
Jason Rodriguez: 15:29 You talk about all how you didn’t really know what was next, and all these opportunities kind of just appeared. But was there any point in time where maybe something didn’t go as planned that might have happened in that trajectory of your career path?
Alex Lockwood: 15:43 After two years in grad school, I had to switch advisors. I went through some really dark times with that. I had a lot of mental health issues. I was seeing a therapist, and I was very, very close to quitting grad school. Personally, I have clinical depression. It runs in my family. When I was in grad school at this time is when it really came out, and I had to start taking some medicine, and we can go into what that looks like, but it is not something you can just take yourself out of ever. I am extremely grateful and fortunate for where I have landed, but not only was it not a straight path at all, but it was a really rocky path at times. All I could do was just keep being kind to people, working hard at whatever I could do at the moment. Whether or not that was directly my schoolwork or not at any given time was a question. But yeah, that’s all I could do to just stay true to who I was.
Jason Rodriguez: 17:01 You talk about these hurdles, these dark moments, and your own mental health. I’m wondering, were those the biggest hurdles?
Alex Lockwood: 17:12 Being a woman is… I would never say the sentence being a woman is an obstacle I have to overcome, but I have been the subject of plenty of sexual harassment. I could tell you stories that would make your jaw drop, and I don’t let it get to me, because that would be counterproductive to where I want to be. But there have definitely been situations where I have questioned myself whether I should try to be more confident or be more humble because just purely of my gender, but I can’t change that, so it is what it is.
Jason Rodriguez: 18:09 How do you find that balance in yourself? How do you find that movement for yourself?
Alex Lockwood: 18:17 Yeah, I mean, I love humor, and so I can take a lot of… I kind of just joke it away. There’s an incident that happened in grad school where an older professor told myself and my two male office colleagues that they could share me because they didn’t have wives of their own, so they could share me. It’s a decade later, more than that, and we still joke about it, so a lot of humor to just take it in stride, a lot of empathy to understand that sometimes people of a different generation or of a different upbringing have different expectations or understandings. Then, it takes a lot of building of one’s own sense of self and self-confidence to be able to say, “Oh, it’s not me. It’s them. I have my own value as a woman and outside of being a woman, just as a scientist, as a person, as a communicator, as a colleague.” But it’s a long path, and I’m surely not all the way down it. Yeah, there’s tactics for handling it, but I hope one day the whole issue itself can be better handled.
Vicky Thompson: 19:53 It’s really interesting to hear how she dealt with some of these things. Being a woman in the workplace can be really hard sometimes, especially in certain fields.
Shane Hanlon: 20:04 Yeah. Again, I’m not a woman in a workplace, but definitely can empathize and understand. But from some of these challenges and really unfortunate situations that she had to deal with was able to overcome and really, I mean, the movie aside, which that’s a big deal, was really able to achieve some amazing things.
Alex Lockwood: 20:31 Professionally. It’s the James Webb Space Telescope. When I was interviewed for my position about six years ago now, there were several questions in the interview, but really the last one and the biggest one that they had for me was, “How are you going to make James Webb Space Telescope a household name like Hubble?” It was kind of an open-ended question. I did give some ideas in the time, but it’s kind of an open-ended question. I feel like I can confidently say that we have made that happen, and it was a team effort for sure. I cannot take all the credit for it, but I was the leader of that team. To see what Webb has become in the public eye as a source of inspiration, as a component of pop culture now, I couldn’t be more proud that I contributed to that.
21:32 It was a huge mission from NASA that had a huge kind of target on its back because of its budget and the delays. When the first images came out in July, basically, all of the ill will was erased. Everyone was a fan. It was a worldwide phenomenon, and I had a big part in making that happen. There were some headlines, I forget who… I think it was the New York Times or something, but it was basically like, “The Webb telescope images are what humanity needs to bring us out of the depression of the pandemic.”
Jason Rodriguez: 22:07 Thinking back on some of your experience, do you have any funny or memorable stories from the field or anything that comes to mind?
Alex Lockwood: 22:25 I remember finding my first trans-Neptunian object, which is a Kuiper belt object, like the dwarf planets, but there’s a lot more of them that aren’t dwarf planets. There’s thousands of them out in the Kuiper belt, and finding my first one where, literally, you’re getting the images down, and you’re comparing images from now and 30 minutes ago to see if something’s moved to find these objects, and that was really cool, finding the first one being like, “Oh,” and I mean, you’re literally a kid in real time, like, “Oh, I see it. I see. I mean, working a telescope, whether it’s a little eight-inch one that you can have in your own backyard, or whether it’s eight-foot one that sits out on a mountain in Hawaii, just knowing that you have a direct capability to observe something that’s really far away, I mean, it brings it right to you, and it makes it so much realer. That is one of my favorite feelings. You feel like you’re controlling the universe because you’re controlling this thing that gives you glimpses into the universe.
Jason Rodriguez: 23:41 What’s next on the horizon for you? What’s going on?
Alex Lockwood: 23:45 After I delivered the first Webb image to the president, basically, I was like, “Okay, has my life peaked? Is there anything I could do that’s cooler than this?” But as I said, I’ve moved into NASA headquarters, and I’m at the position to really be able to help improve some of those organizational processes, so getting to my efficiency consultant piece. NASA is amazing, and nobody would ever question that NASA does amazing things, but just like for anything, you get inside, and there’s some pieces where you’re like, “This doesn’t quite work. Why is that doing that?” Moreover, there’s people who are frustrated with the processes, and so I’m fortunate to be in a position where I can come in and say, like, “Oh, let’s help make things better.”
24:38 I kind of hope that the next 30 years of my life is just helping NASA do what they do even better because it’s already awesome. Everything is just icing on the cake. If I can be part of that and whatever new discoveries are coming with the upcoming missions to asteroids, and sample returns, and return to Moon, and Mars, and the next big flagship astrophysics observatory that’s supposed to really understand exoplanets and search for life, there’s a lot of amazing stuff that’s going to happen in the next 20 years in NASA, and I really hope to be a part of it and to be able to share that inspiration, that exploration, the possibility with the public because I think we all really need to know that we can reach our potential, and I think NASA helps people understand that.
Shane Hanlon: 25:51 Vicky, what are you looking forward to in the next 20 years, professionally or personally, not to put you on the spot or anything?
Vicky Thompson: 25:57 Oh, my God, 20 years. Will I be retired in 20 years? No.
Shane Hanlon: 26:04 No. No. No.
Vicky Thompson: 26:05 I can’t think that far ahead. I could barely think through the end of the year. I don’t know. I guess I’ll be… Oh, gosh, this is so hard. Shane-
Shane Hanlon: 26:14 Will we still be doing this podcast 20 years from now?
Vicky Thompson: 26:16 I’ll still be thinking of the answer to this question in 20 years.
Shane Hanlon: 26:21 See, I just constantly cheat. I don’t even try, because I can’t look that far ahead. But I will say, in the next 24 hours or so, at least from when this will be released, I will be going to see the new Shazam! movie, so that should be fun. I’m going to have a great time.
Vicky Thompson: 26:34 Oh, gosh.
Shane Hanlon: 26:35 The look of judgment on your face from Top Gun was one thing, and the look on… oh-
Vicky Thompson: 26:35 There’s just-
Shane Hanlon: 26:35 Listeners, just-
Vicky Thompson: 26:35 There’s just so many-
Shane Hanlon: 26:35 … imagine it.
Vicky Thompson: 26:35 Go ahead.
Shane Hanlon: 26:46 It’s amazing. It’s so lovely.
Vicky Thompson: 26:47 Yeah, just imagine my face. I don’t know, there’s so many… Shazam!’s a superhero movie. There’s so many.
Shane Hanlon: 26:47 It is. There are.
Vicky Thompson: 26:55 I can’t keep them straight.
Shane Hanlon: 26:55 You don’t have to.
Vicky Thompson: 26:55 Anyway.
Shane Hanlon: 26:55 It’s just-
Vicky Thompson: 26:55 I don’t have to.
Shane Hanlon: 26:55 … silly entertainment that I’m looking forward to.
Vicky Thompson: 26:57 Good. I’m happy for you.
Shane Hanlon: 27:03 I’m happy for me, too. But on a more serious note, we wanted to wrap up with Alex by asking her for any advice for aspiring young folks to get into science.
Alex Lockwood: 27:14 I would say that there are so many ways that you can get involved. It never hurts to have more scientific understanding if you wanted to do anything in science. But it doesn’t mean you have to work in a lab or be analyzing data for the rest of your life. There’s so many ways to get involved that you really just have to try a bunch of different things. I think, fortunately, there’s the opportunity nowadays to spend all of your 20s trying different stuff, so figure out where you can feel successful because, when you feel successful, you’re going to add a lot more value. I struggled feeling successful in science for a while there, and I found that my real value was outside of the hard science of it. But you got to keep trying. You got to try different things and be nice to other people.
28:15 It’s really hard when you’re in a hard place, and you feel like you’re not succeeding to build a wall, build a shell and be hard, to go with that analogy. But everyone is struggling. The more you can make connections with people, the more you’re going to be able to figure out how to work through things and the opportunities that are afforded. As I said, when you cross disciplines, come together with other people, there’s so many opportunities that come about when you’re kind that I think that’s something that we often forget in science. If everyone just reminded themselves every day to just be a little kinder to themselves and also to others, I think we could find a lot more success instead of competition.
Vicky Thompson: 29:18 Okay, Shane, so have you thought of a favorite movie of all time?
Shane Hanlon: 29:18 No, I did not.
Vicky Thompson: 29:18 Your favorite movie?
Shane Hanlon: 29:18 Nope. I-
Vicky Thompson: 29:24 No?
Shane Hanlon: 29:25 Nope, I wasted all this time and didn’t do it.
Vicky Thompson: 29:25 Oh.
Shane Hanlon: 29:27 But I will say this has turned into a movie podcast, so apologies for anyone who’s not into that. But my partner and I did end up watching all of the Oscar nominated best picture movies in preparation for the Oscars, which we didn’t actually end up watching. I just like the exercise. I will say there is a donkey named Jenny in one of the movies who might be my favorite donkey of all time, so that counts, right?
Vicky Thompson: 29:56 No, it doesn’t count. I feel like you just got the full EGOT-
Shane Hanlon: 30:02 Yes.
Vicky Thompson: 30:04 … trying to avoid this question. You did a little singing earlier. You did-
Shane Hanlon: 30:08 Oh, man.
Vicky Thompson: 30:09 … your… yeah-
Shane Hanlon: 30:09 We talked about an EGOT-
Vicky Thompson: 30:09 … tap dancing-
Shane Hanlon: 30:09 We talked about an EGOT-
Vicky Thompson: 30:09 … around the question.
Shane Hanlon: 30:13 … in one of our previous episodes, too, so-
Vicky Thompson: 30:15 Yeah, exactly.
Shane Hanlon: 30:15 Oh, man, I’m here for that.
Vicky Thompson: 30:17 Yeah.
Shane Hanlon: 30:19 I can’t top that, so we’re going to-
Vicky Thompson: 30:19 Nope.
Shane Hanlon: 30:20 We’re going to go out here, and with that, that is all from Third Pod from the Sun.
Vicky Thompson: 30:26 Special thanks to Jason Rodriguez for conducting the interview and to NASA for sponsoring the series.
Shane Hanlon: 30:31 This episode was produced by Zoe Swiss and me with audio engineering from Collin Warren and artwork by Karen Romano Young.
Vicky Thompson: 30:39 We’d love to hear your thoughts, so please rate and review us, and you can find new episodes on your favorite podcasting app or at thirdpodfromthesun.com.
Shane Hanlon: 30:48 Thanks, all, and we’ll see you next week. Cool. All right, well, yeah, thanks for being flexible with this. I’ll put a time on for mid next week to get-
Vicky Thompson: 31:03 Yeah.
Shane Hanlon: 31:03 … the next one in after I come back and before you’re gone.
Vicky Thompson: 31:07 Perfect.
Shane Hanlon: 31:09 Cool.
Vicky Thompson: 31:09 Where are you going?
Shane Hanlon: 31:10 I’m going to Disney this weekend.
Vicky Thompson: 31:13 Why?
Shane Hanlon: 31:14 Because it’s great. It’s a magical kingdom.